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Telegram bots

Started by Juju, July 06, 2015, 08:11:10 am

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DJ Omnimaga

I wish we were able to connect it to EFnet. Then we could probably get rid of Omninet. But again, I think some of the people who recently joined use Omninet.

Streetwalrus

@Juju, the Telegram bot isn't connected to Omninet, or at least it's not in the channel. Probably related to the netsplit from yesterday (I think soru rebooted the server). I need access to the bot in case that happens.
Also PLEASE, upgrade the group to a supergroup.

DJ Omnimaga

I'll relay the message to Facebook since he doesn't seem to check the staff board much for important matters. X.x

Juju

Oh, but I do. The server indeed was rebooted, and I restarted the bots mere minutes before DJ sent me that on Facebook. Well, I think. Been a while I did that.

(also this is not the staff board lol)
Read Zarmina!
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if you wanna throw money at me and/or CodeWalrus monthly it's here

DJ Omnimaga

Oh right. I always think it is, since the EFnet bots thread is there.

Also see the other two requests in his post (upgrade the TG group to Supergroup and give Street the TG bot access or password if that's not possible)

DJ Omnimaga

@Juju @Streetwalrus Do you think we could get the bots working again early this week, like tuesday or wednesday? I would rather not see CW permanently cut off from Telegram again and people on each side of the split are missing out on activity on the other side.

I know some EFnet servers on which the bot should work. All I need to do is /whois certain TI community bots

DJ Omnimaga

@Juju

Since the netsplit ended, the Telegram bot now sends messages to IRC, but it no longer sends IRC messages to Telegram. Can you fix it? D:

Streetwalrus

It seems to work fine right now.

DJ Omnimaga

Yeah thanks to aeTIos for fixing. :)

DJ Omnimaga

* DJ Omnimaga prods @bb010g (or others) to post in this topic when the Telegram bridge goes down or stops working properly, making sure to @mention Street and Juju in the process so they get poked.

bb010g

Quote from: DJ Omnimaga on June 29, 2016, 10:09:53 pm
* DJ Omnimaga prods @bb010g (or others) to post in this topic when the Telegram bridge goes down or stops working properly, making sure to @mention Street and Juju in the process so they get poked.


Aww, but I've got such a nice streak of only lurking in IRC going! :p Anyhow, my 2 cents about things:
Quote from: bb010g
15:06:35 <bb010g> Also, https://vector.im/ & #codewalrus:matrix.org . I think this is a tinge more usable than XMPP for this sort of large group thing. Also has the ability to do IRC bridging. So WalrusIRC could actually be set up to be a Matrix client, and it would be seamlessly integrated with IRC user wise (see #matrix on Freenode (linked to Matrix HQ) for an example).
15:09:05 <bb010g> I would link to a linked channel, but matrix.org only has linkers set up currently for Freenode and Moznet.
15:12:09 <bb010g> But yeah, logging for free, nice API, actual encryption when going user to user soon I think (same base algorithm as OMEMO ( https://matrix.org/git/olm/about ), possibly switching to Signal's impl thanks to new App Store exemption, but not sure), persistent sessions, Markdown formatting, open source, supports voice and video chat between users, and more!


Also, my opinion on why using Telegram ultimately is harmful in the long run (taken from a bot development group on Telegram), but it is rather long:
[spoiler]
Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 21:05]
http://gizmodo.com/why-you-should-stop-using-telegram-right-now-1782557415

Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 21:07]
They have a point. Using Telegram, even if you see it as an unsecure platform, makes others aware of it by name only even, and they can be deceived into thinking it's secure.

Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 21:08]
I like some of the features and the communities built here, but is it all worth it? Features can be ported and communities migrated.

Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 21:16]
Why should I invest my time into writing a library to use a protocol I have to reverse engineer so others can propagate a fundamentally flawed platform? Durov can talk all he wants about wanting to bring decentralization; it probably will never come. Why not write a library for nice development on a vetted protocol that has up to date documentation and an open source, encouraging people to use that platform? I get why a person wouldn't care--I haven't for a while. But my usage will inevitably drag others in who don't have my knowledge. If strong crypto and full stack FOSS are Good Things, why should I throw away my discretion here? We all managed to drag our friends and acquaintances here on ultimately false claims of security and openness. We can drag them to a new platform the same way, but this time with actual data and solid reasons.

Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 21:19]
I should see how hard it would be to make an XMPP bridge for otouto, and eventually port it.

Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 21:48]
Telegram's beginning to give me the same unsure feelings I get from seeing general projects move their chat to Discord. They're moving to a platform that's closed source on both sides (safe for a bot API client side and some prior client reverse engineering, mostly deprecated due to its use for bots), is free with no obvious revenue sources coming down the pipe, has crap logging (read: scroll up more), and an unreliable mobile client (long messages have just been lost more than once for me). Telegram isn't much better. Durov claims to have morality and gobs of money that keeps him and his team incorruptible. That may be true. However, morality of a person is impossible to objectively know. He could very well be working with governments in very subtle ways that he's been gag ordered about and the closed source servers hide. You just can't tell. The open source client is great, but smeg, there's an open source "client" for Morrowind. It's not really open source until the full stack is out there, especially with something as server loving as messaging and Telegram's centralized implementation. Sure, the decentralized alternative is the rather awkward Tox, but federation isn't something new. Signal uses a single server point, but it's all based on XMPP and FOSS. You can roll your own client and server and see what's different--which isn't much due to actual perfect forward secrecy everywhere. You can vet it. You can't vet Telegram, and researchers don't really want to vet it because, as linked, it leaks metadata at a ridiculous rate and already rolled their own dubious crypto. If I want unsecured messaging with friends and small groups over data, why not just use WhatsApp? It's got more users, actual crypto as far as I can tell--at worst none, like Telegram, and at best actual, unlike Telegram. If I want mass discussions, why not use IRC? It's unsecured, a simple protocol, a huge number of great bot frameworks, servers, and clients, and is full stack FOSS. If I want truly secured discussion, why not just use XMPP and PGP or OMEMO? It's a FOSS protocol, vetted, pretty nice to setup as a user, doesn't need phone numbers, has good clients on all major platforms, and has a pretty good number of Telegram features. If I want team communication, why not use Mattermost, Rocket.Chat, Slack, or even IRC or Matrix?

What void does Telegram even fill anymore, besides holding the current users in situ until they change platforms? I want to continue liking Telegram. I've met a bunch of great people and devs here. I'm over s***posting about switching, though. If you're not using the Bot API, Telegram almost seems to try to set up obstacles for development. Announcements that show up at Telegram's whim, not after discussion with the community. The linked problems with the protocol that users simply can't fix. Are stickers really that good?

Brayden Banks, [27.06.16 22:10]
[In reply to Juan Potato about cross platform]
Tox is cross platform, IRCCloud or just web search for IRC client (+ http://ircv3.net/software/clients.html), https://chinwag.im/setup/, Mattermost is cross platform, https://matrix.org/docs/projects/try-matrix-now.html, rocket.chat is cross platform. As for feature parity, IRC is safe, XMPP is good with those listed, Mattermost is good AFAIK, Matrix is good AFAIK
[/spoiler]

Matrix is looking a lot better now from when I last tried it out last year. It's turning into a viable alternative for a lot of chat platforms, or at least a good compliment. The Matrix FAQ is worth a read if you're wondering how it differs from other platforms.

DJ Omnimaga

I'M trying to make you post about your Tetrisphere 3D polygon HP Prime game :trollface:

Also yeah there was a big Slashdot article about Telegram security issues the other day that Nikky linked to. Personally, #CodeWalrus would just be an IRC channel, EFnet-only, just like #Cemetech and all the long-time TI channels, old-school style, as it worked. But when CodeWalrus opened, many users insisted to use Telegram so we had to cave in and add a Telegram bridge. If we switch to something else we would need to make a bridge to that other something else, but ideally I wish that people stuck with IRC overall, since it does the job fine anyway. :P But that's just my personal opinion and I don't want to force people to switch. :)

I also don't want to have to support 17 different Telegram/Whatsapp clones and have 17 bridges/bots. That would be a mess.

bb010g

Quote from: DJ Omnimaga on June 29, 2016, 10:23:37 pm
I'M trying to make you post about your Tetrisphere 3D polygon HP Prime game :trollface:

Wait, what? No one informed me of this. I want to try!  :D

Quote from: DJ Omnimaga on June 29, 2016, 10:23:37 pm
But when CodeWalrus opened, many users insisted to use Telegram so we had to cave in and add a Telegram bridge.

Honestly, the whole reason I use Telegram most of the time is because it's more convenient. With IRC, I have to log in each time, maybe register with services, and then, if using a bouncer, interact with it out of the normal IRC experience to read my history, or, if not using a bouncer, miss history. I could go look at what the logging bot has done on its own website with its own interface, but that's another disparate experience. With Telegram, the logs just stick around. Matrix gives a lot of the benefits of Telegram here (sane backlog and logs in general, reliable presence, multimedia) without the closed platform and odd practices (bad or nonexistent docs, marketing security where there isn't much security, releases after a burst of closed room development).
Quote from: DJ Omnimaga on June 29, 2016, 10:23:37 pm
If we switch to something else we would need to make a bridge to that other something else, but ideally I wish that people stuck with IRC overall, since it does the job fine anyway. :P But that's just my personal opinion and I don't want to force people to switch. :)

The bridge already exists and can be set up in ~5 minutes for just the CodeWalrus/calculator efnet channels. (Do we have multiple? I only know of #CodeWalrus.) The Matrix devs actually use IRC a lot too, which is part of why the bridge is so good and seamless. (You can even PM across platforms.)
Quote from: DJ Omnimaga on June 29, 2016, 10:23:37 pm
I also don't want to have to support 17 different Telegram/Whatsapp clones and have 17 bridges/bots. That would be a mess.

Totally with you there. I think if we were to consider and use Matrix, that would come with the Telegram bridge shutting down. We dropped the extra IRC networks for a reason.

DJ Omnimaga

June 29, 2016, 10:43:06 pm #43 Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 10:45:31 pm by DJ Omnimaga
Lol I was kidding because back in 2013 you talked often about a secret HP Prime game you were worked on that was supposedly Tetris-related but extremely advanced. :P

As for IRC, can't you setup your IRC client to auto-ident and rejoin/reconnect on startup? Most IRC clients (even IRCCloud) support that.

Also in the case of #CodeWalrus, the channel is logged, so if you are worried about not having logs, then in WalrusIRC you just have to click the :walrii: icon at the top-left, choose options then select a log date. It's a bit buggy, though (missing CSS)

Here are the bridges we currently use:

Telegram
EFnet IRC network
Omnimaga IRC network (only in use for the Telegram bridge, since juju couldn't get the bot to connect to EFnet)
WalrusIRC

bb010g

June 29, 2016, 10:47:11 pm #44 Last Edit: June 29, 2016, 10:49:28 pm by bb010g
Oh, that. Yeah. I'm not quite sure if I even have the source for that. I haven't done much calc coding in a while.

I have IRCCloud set up to ident on rejoin and all that, but that's the thing. It's extra work, which is fine when it's still the best solution. But I think Matrix actually improves over IRC in some areas, and is worth a shot. It's just nicer when you don't have to navigate a buggy, hand-made site just to read logs. Why not choose the option that keeps them for you in one nice place, no matter the channel size? Or at least is a backup in case the main custom site fails?

Reply edit:
Streetwalrus, [29.06.16 15:24]
guys, the bridge to this group is going to be down until we set up a better one, our connection to omninet is giving up so we'll finally get rid of it

Streetwalrus, [29.06.16 15:24]
it's actually the omninet <=> efnet link which is down

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