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84+CE to be locked down against 3rd-party Flash APP development or tools?

Started by DJ Omnimaga, March 12, 2015, 11:11:16 pm

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DJ Omnimaga

People on Cemetech have analyzed TI-84 Plus CE Flash applications that Texas Instruments released a few days before. It appears that they contains a 2048-bits signature. The signature key is required to sign APPs and make them valid for use on the new ez80 calculator, and there is no sign that Texas Instruments have any plans to release a SDK to develop such software.

Since factoring an key this large is impossible with today's technology, could this mean that the TI-83 Premium CE and TI-84 Plus CE will be locked down against third-party Flash APPs and be restricted to only a few developers such as TI themselves? ASM programs are possible to write no matter the outcome of this, so 3rd-party ASM development on those new calculators is perfectly safe, but in some cases, choosing a 8xp ASM file over a Flash  APP is not the ideal situation, especially if TI decides also to add an executable code limit to that new calculator line, like the 8 KB limit on the TI-83+. Or could TI be planning a paid SDK? After all, back in the early 2000's, Flash APP development costed money before TI finally decided to make the SDK free of charge.

In conclusions, there is a possibility that for the TI-83 Premium CE and TI-84 Plus CE, we might be limited to the Asm() command to launch native language softwares.

Source: http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11347 and http://tiplanet.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=178718#p178718

Snektron

Why does it feel like TI always has some kind of thing to make nice things suck? (Well i guess most big companies do that). But there'll probably be some way around it, though i dont even know how app sign on a 84+ works <_<
Legends say if you spam more than DJ Omnimaga, you will become a walrus...


DJ Omnimaga

I have the feeling that they want to sell apps or allow certain companies to do so and thus, are trying to prevent people from being able to hack paid apps. Or it could be to comply with tests and only allow specific apps.

At least we got 8xp ASM programs and more RAM, but I wonder if something like Doors CSE is possible as nostub program? We also still don't know if that calc supports hardware scrolling and parser hooks.

aeTIos

I wouldn't even care if said paid apps were, well, actually sort of good, but most of them aren't. (ZoomMath isn't exactly what I call a stunning app, at least not for the price it goes for <_<)
ceci n'est pas une signature

DJ Omnimaga

Yeah I would say that Zoomath is nice, but it should probably be closer to $20-40 at most and even then that would be a bit on the pricy side. When you pay more for a software than you did for the platform it runs on there is a serious problem about the software price. >.<

CKH4

We need a giant computer dedicated to breaking ti's signing key. :P


pimathbrainiac

Actually, as stated by Kerm, TI has said nothing on the subject yet, and Kerm was going to ask about it at T^3. I wouldn't conclude anything about it yet, personally.
Well, I'm bach here too!

DJ Omnimaga

Considering he asked TI to fix CSE bugs before in vain, I am not convinced that TI will do much either this time, other than "listening".

Quote from: CKH4 on March 13, 2015, 12:21:20 pm
We need a giant computer dedicated to breaking ti's signing key. :P
And a time machine to travel in 2134 AD to acquire the said computer.

Duke "Tape" Eiyeron


Snektron

Quote from: CKH4 on March 13, 2015, 12:21:20 pm
We need a giant computer dedicated to breaking ti's signing key. :P

4 words: Millions of z80 processors.
Legends say if you spam more than DJ Omnimaga, you will become a walrus...


DJ Omnimaga

Quote from: Eiyeron on March 13, 2015, 03:22:27 pm
Or wait until you find a way to get around the protection! :p
that could work, but then we're in for another ndless cat and mouse game like with the Nspire and Kerm previously explaines that he was against the idea of going through such hassle  and won't support it. http://www.cemetech.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=232146#232146 But again if the protection sucks like with Boot 1.03 then maybe TI will give up after our first hack.

Caleb Hansberry

After all the hype about the new calculator and it's cool abilities it'd be hilarious if it was locked down  >:D I agree that hacking it like the nspire would be cool, but tedious and annoying - however if it came down to it, and the CE was their #1 calculator after discontinuing the BE and CSE, I think it would be the option people would take anyway.

QuoteAnd a time machine to travel in 2134 AD to acquire the said computer.
Do you mean 9108 AD?


DJ Omnimaga

That said, I don't think it will be as bad as the Nspire. In the worst case scenario, we would simply be forced to program ASM/C via 8xp programs that cannot exceed 8 KB of executable code and 64 KB each, meaning for large games there would be many sub-programs cluttering your menu. And in the case where this calc lacks parser hooks (still need to check that out), then xLIBC would need to use OpenLib/ExecLib instead of the real() and det() tokens. This might not be ideal since I heard that OpenLib/ExecLib were buggy before.

We would still get many great ASM programs. It's just that it would be inconvenient to be unable to write them in APP format. Notice how many great games came out as APPs after the TI-83+ SDK became free. Hybrid BASIC programmers would also be greatly affected if they were forced to rely on libraries that use the Asm() command, because Asm(prgmNAME) searches the VAT to find prgmNAME, which takes a long while (see how slow The Reign of Legends 3 got)
Quote from: Caleb Hansberry on March 13, 2015, 04:39:38 pm
QuoteAnd a time machine to travel in 2134 AD to acquire the said computer.
Do you mean 9108 AD?
Maybe? :P



EDIT: Hm if you read Cemetech, it appears that all ports are blocked rather than just the LED. ASM coders will thus be much more limited in what they can do, due to lack of direct hardware access. Maybe it will be like PRIZM dev?

Snektron

Wait, what? Does that mean developers have to rely on TI's slow routines? It's like they don't want people to buy their stuff for anything
other than calculation <_<
Legends say if you spam more than DJ Omnimaga, you will become a walrus...


DJ Omnimaga

Indeed. No direct input, for example, so in games , multiple keypresses will be impossible. We also won't have access to hardware scrolling or setting half res mode. That's unless exploits are found, but then will TI patch them?

I have postponed purchasing this calc until I am sure that hybrid BASIC or pure BASIC are viable options for fast games. I know that my maze game would work well due to the bug fixes, but if stuff like First Fantasy is impossible then it won't interest me enough. There is still the HP Prime, after all, and HP jist killed the HP 50g so they can now concentrate their efforts on the Prime firmware.

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