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Featured Member Projects => gLib 3D polygon library (TI-83+/84+/CE/83PCE) => Topic started by: TheMachine02 on May 09, 2017, 05:36:50 pm

Title: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 09, 2017, 05:36:50 pm
As you might know, when creating a 3D games, models play an huge part for everything. Even if the engine is one of most important part, what is displayed is even more important.

Some idea about a 3D RPG circle around my head faster and faster with the developpement of color glib. The engine get to a point that it might be usefull for displaying vivid world and monster, in a semi-iteractives framerates  :P
However, my skill with blender and texturing are close to zero : I can retouch some model and rigs the at least, but to create one from ground up, I fail miserably. I could tackle some texturing with the huge image:texture bank I have from ripped game, but don't expect much though.

What do I need ? Well, 3D models ranging from the main character to some monster (even if those can be ripped for testing, and replaced much much later). Ideally those should be low poly enough to be displayed, but I could handle this part (I've have several nice technique to lower poly count, so it isn't much important).

One model I would love to see is a main character. Well, to be honest, I have several idea of what he/she could look like, but I won't describe it extensively if nobody might create it  :P

So, this lead to the main question : who feel he could create a 3D model for a fantasy based 3D RPG in low poly with texture ?  :P

Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Snektron on May 09, 2017, 05:38:07 pm
Wans't there a walrii 3d model? that seems like a good main character  ;)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on May 09, 2017, 05:58:10 pm
it had cute eyes and tusks, but the flimmers were weird...
(https://codewalr.us/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.codewalr.us%2Fwalrii3Dcropped.gif&hash=aa32b41703c59030614208e3e57676f2)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: tr1p1ea on May 10, 2017, 05:45:43 am
There is another model of that walrii:

(https://codewalr.us/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftr1p1ea.net%2Ffiles%2Fdownloads%2Fscreenshots%2Fsframe%2Fwalriice1.gif&hash=80a15bce0cf07bc9a37c8c16bfd3f6e7)

But it needs work obviously as it was a quickly made model.

Not sure how well it would work in an RPG however - plus it has no textures.

Perhaps more appropriately some classic RPG models can be made, or found for free online etc?
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on May 10, 2017, 01:38:05 pm
I'd love to help but I have absolutely 0 experience with creating textures...  :-\
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 10, 2017, 04:22:00 pm
A Walrii RPG would definitively be nice. I can' t help, though.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on May 10, 2017, 08:21:03 pm
Hmm... Given the target hardware's limitations, I take it you're expecting high-end in-game, PlayStation 1-grade models and textures?

It's been a while since I've played with Blender, but last time I did manage to create and rig basic, untextured humanoid models. I also happen to draw and I'm bored of fulfilling requests from rather single-minded fellow students.

Care to give me a description of what you're looking for? Even if my humble modelling and untried texturing skills end up not being up to the task, I could use some new ideas for doodling.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on May 10, 2017, 10:25:37 pm
then I guess I'm on the same level as u, @Jean-Baptiste Boric ^^

I guess low-poly models like the good old EmpireEarth 1 ones? ;)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on May 11, 2017, 07:50:06 am
Probably, though I would rather compare with in-game Resident Evil 3. I do need to dust off Blender, I don't have any models to show (and before that, I need to draw character sheet references to model from).
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 12, 2017, 07:38:45 pm
Maybe it would be better to have some of the models use lower end graphics like Stsr Fox on the SNES too, such as if there are plane/spaceship enemies, for the sake of speed.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on May 12, 2017, 08:16:35 pm
According to the posts I've seen, it looks like gLib can output roughly between 2500 and 5000 triangles per second, about an order of magnitude less than a typical PlayStation 1 game. A Star Fox clone running at ~20 FPS sounds doable, especially with tricks like LOD or precalculated culling. The original Crash Bandicoot trilogy could push a truly ridiculous amount of polygons per seconds with these tricks, but you'd run out of RAM pretty quickly with that approach here.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: tr1p1ea on May 13, 2017, 12:44:25 pm
Except that TM02 is talking about making an RPG - not a starfox clone.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 13, 2017, 02:01:18 pm
Indeed the project is more toward an RPG  :P

Anyway, thanks for your response. I'll get a folder with art & design and send it to you (just need to find some time to do it).

For polygon count, gLib is able to push about ~8000 polygones per frame when counting backface culling, but this number lower when considering full screen rendering. (For model however, they can be detailed, triangles which doesn't appears at the screen (if they have a width a 0 for example) are culled quite early in pipeline. Vertex processing performance is around 2200 cycles / vertex lighted, so about 22000 vertex/s . With this in mind, I think model should be about 600 triangles, maybe a bit more, up to 800 triangles. Main issues will be RAM of course, but I'll take care of that don't worry about it. gLib is designed for streaming data from flash anyway.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: xMarminq_ on May 13, 2017, 03:58:04 pm
Oiram 64 9_9
@MateoConLechuga 
@TheMachine02
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 13, 2017, 04:57:42 pm
Something I am curious about is if gLib can render scaled/rotated 2D sprites fast. Many Nintendo 64 games use 2D sprites, such as the karts and characters in Mario Kart 64, although they're usually blurry. Couldn't the characters be made out of pre-rendered 3D frames like in Donkey Kong Country and Mario Kart 64 and the rest in 3D to save speed?
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 14, 2017, 09:23:36 am
Well, rendering scaled/rotated 2D sprite is a matter of skipping one dimension and use the exact same code as with 3d rendering. So yeah, draing only two textured triangle and rotating 4 vertex is pretty fast. That could indeed be used.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: c4ooo on May 14, 2017, 05:50:20 pm
Quote from: TheMachine02 on May 14, 2017, 09:23:36 am
Well, rendering scaled/rotated 2D sprite is a matter of skipping one dimension and use the exact same code as with 3d rendering. So yeah, draing only two textured triangle and rotating 4 vertex is pretty fast. That could indeed be used.

If rendering rotation / scaling of 2D sprites, why not treat them as a single rectangle instead of two triangles? I dont understand the reason behind why everything 3D is made from triangles lol
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: kotu on May 14, 2017, 06:26:03 pm
The reason things are made from  triangles in 3D is: a polygon with 3 vertices defiines a plane - one with 4 vertices can define up to 2 planes

*edit*
so with a triangle you always know whether the whole thing is visible or not.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: c4ooo on May 14, 2017, 07:49:21 pm
Quote from: kotu on May 14, 2017, 06:26:03 pm
The reason things are made from  triangles in 3D is: a polygon with 3 vertices defiines a plane - one with 4 vertices can define up to 2 planes

*edit*
so with a triangle you always know whether the whole thing is visible or not.

Well i meant if it was ported to just allow 2D sprites on a 2D surface. I guess my post was confusing since i mentioned 3D :(
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 14, 2017, 08:46:52 pm
Sure, 2D blitting method could also be programmed, but it would be very close to what textured triangle code is, and there is little point to use maybe a little more optimized code which would add a lot of weight to the already heavy program. Futhermore, there isn't many gain to be expected from a custom 2D pipeline, especially that the integration with the 3D will be harder. Better off using 3D pipeline for everything (not UI though  :P )
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: xMarminq_ on May 15, 2017, 12:32:39 am
You could just pull a Doom and make it look 3D
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on May 15, 2017, 08:39:17 am
using gLib with 2D chars could result in a really impressive framerate if I think about how simplified the map of nDoom was...
But doesnt that kill the purpose or a real 3D game? ;)

sure it'd do for a first demo of gLib, but I doubt that's what he wants.
As I understood it, he needs real 3D char models to test gLib on a real 3D game to evaluate the speed ;)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 15, 2017, 11:55:46 am
Exactly, since using 3D model for character open a whole world of possibilities against using only 2D precomputed image, especially in lightning (cause yeah, my lightning is quite efficient right now). And even if the speed isn't enough to ouput full 320x240, I have the possibilities to lower the resolution....
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: c4ooo on May 15, 2017, 09:50:10 pm
Maybe you can do something simple like this just to showcase the engine? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avn8FJOyxhQ
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on May 16, 2017, 08:09:49 am
Do you guys still remember the ravenfield topic?
I guess such a simplified character model (rather similar to minecraft) would be enough for testing the speed in a first demo :)
Even tho it wouldn't really show the true beauty of the light stuff :/
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: c4ooo on May 16, 2017, 08:09:25 pm
Quote from: p2 on May 16, 2017, 08:09:49 am
Do you guys still remember the ravenfield topic?
I guess such a simplified character model (rather similar to minecraft) would be enough for testing the speed in a first demo :)
Even tho it wouldn't really show the true beauty of the light stuff :/

3D minecraft would be awesome too
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on May 17, 2017, 05:36:56 am
not very realistic cuz of the amount of blocks that have to be rendered for a decent game experience.
in a simplified building like in nDOOM like 20 surfaces are shown in average (guessed, idk for sure) but for minecraft... x.x

I think an nDOOM like map combined with a minecraft-style character would be best suited...

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong @TheMachine02 ^^
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 17, 2017, 09:46:17 am
Yeah minecraft despite his low-poly appearance is still quite heavy for CPUs. You have to build up chunk & many polygons may be needed to be rendered. With significant shortcut such as very low view distance it could be possible though. gLib can still output a heavy number of triangles per frame hopefully  :P
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 17, 2017, 06:11:58 pm
I think the Minecraft issue is that you need to render every single side of the squares, right? In regular 3D games, the terrain is usually a bunch of walls stuck together while Minecraft is individual blocks
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: WholeWheatBagels on May 17, 2017, 06:20:11 pm
IIRC why Minecraft is so CPU-intensive is that it has to calculate what blocks to show and render them in real-time dynamically instead of a fixed map like other games. Not sure if this is actually why tho.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 17, 2017, 06:31:00 pm
Yeah true. It's particularly worse the higher in the air the block is. If you make a huge platform at 255 height then remove 1 block in the middle, the game freezes for about 10 seconds and worldediting 10 blocks this high in the air can crash a server the same way 1000000 blocks will on the ground.

The fact the game is written in Java doesn't help either.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: WholeWheatBagels on May 17, 2017, 08:01:18 pm
Luckily there are ways to mitigate that, with client-optimization mods and such. Even so, if you have a potato computer (https://i.imgur.com/0S5spVm.jpg) then you're basically screwed, lol
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on May 18, 2017, 12:54:29 am
Hahaha I laughed at that pic XD
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 18, 2017, 09:04:25 am
Still it is very intensive for the CPU because a lot of geometry is rebuild each frame and a lot of data is send to GPU each frame (oh this is bad !). Anyway it runs okayish on nspire with fairly optimized code, so it will be hard on CE. With a ez80 at true 48MHz maybe but we dont have this at hand :p
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: p2 on May 18, 2017, 09:08:00 am
Quote from: WholeWheatBagels on May 17, 2017, 08:01:18 pm
Luckily there are ways to mitigate that, with client-optimization mods and such. Even so, if you have a potato computer (https://i.imgur.com/0S5spVm.jpg) then you're basically screwed, lol

pff whoever built this computer, it's his own fault it's super slow.
Only connecting one 10th of the pins of the RAM module means one 10th of the speed, everyone knows that <_<
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on May 31, 2017, 09:30:09 pm
So finally got time to gather some thought about the model. Ok I won't hide it, you have a lot of freedom. A loooottt  :P
Those who don't want to get spoilered, don't read, but there isn"t many info anyway. Tried to do a drawing to fix some idea, but you really don't want to see the result <_<

There is quite a lot of colorscheme though (this is more for texturing later). Anyway, if one want to draw a picture of it first to fix idea, well pm it me and I'll share it with other who want to try to model it. If you have any question, well just ask me  :P

Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on June 01, 2017, 12:26:35 pm
I'll have to make some drawings first before attempting to model anything. I'll try to do that as soon as possible.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: ben_g on June 02, 2017, 06:15:32 pm
I gave it a try today. It's currently still untextured and unfortunately turned out quite terrible. With almost 300 polys I wonder if it may be a bit heavy to render, though it's certainly possible to optimize it a bit.
images: ShowHide
(https://s11.postimg.org/yf3b44ytv/Machine1.png)(https://s15.postimg.org/yv3sv7bm3/Machine1.png)(https://s11.postimg.org/v8mn0wuoz/Machine1.png)


link, in case you want to open it in Blender: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_kOEGPSxGbXejZXa1ZuTGhjcUE/view?usp=sharing (http://Link, in case you want to open the model in Blender)

I'll give texturing a try if I find some more time.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on June 02, 2017, 08:26:05 pm
Well it already look pretty neat I think  ;)

I am fairly sure you ould up polygons count a bit, up to about ~600-800 ; there will be an optimized model for game taking account premade backface culling anyway, and the other usage will be animation, so it is best to have a bit more polygons here.
For an idea, lara croft III model is about 650 triangles and 350 vertex with a lot of unwanted details to the head  :P

Anyway, that is a good base  :D

EDIT :
Btw for texturing, just do it in 24bits range, my converter will be able to treat it just right, you also have key color transparency. Max texture size is 256x256, but I think 128x128 should be enough for the personnage.
EDIT 2 :
Added wing texture !
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 04, 2017, 04:27:25 pm
Looks great @TheMachine02
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on June 06, 2017, 05:10:44 pm
Oh my God, I forgot how time-consuming this is... :banghead:

Spoiler: ShowHide

340 vertices, 424 faces, 686 triangles total. Obviously still a WIP (soooo many things to touch up), can be simplified later if needed.

(https://s3.postimg.org/jnn3zmmb7/wip.jpg)

I drew a character sheet reference to model from, but I'm not too satisfied with it so I don't think I'll upload it.


Next time I'll stick to pencil and paper :P
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 07, 2017, 04:04:15 pm
You normally do your 3D models on paper with a pencil? O.O
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on June 07, 2017, 08:06:28 pm
Quote from: xlibman on June 07, 2017, 04:04:15 pm
You normally do your 3D models on paper with a pencil? O.O


I'm not that insane, but I do model with hand-drawn reference sketches as background images.

I normally just doodle when bored at school or when slightly drunk in a bar. I usually don't do 3D models because I don't have access to my workstation in both situations and because it takes me forever to model anything.

I'm still working on the model. It's mostly done (only the hands are missing), I'll make a post when it's finished. I'm currently at 547 vertices, 655 faces and 1,063 triangles, but there's plenty of room for dumbing down the mesh.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: xMarminq_ on June 07, 2017, 11:13:12 pm
Quote from: p2 on May 16, 2017, 08:09:49 am
Do you guys still remember the ravenfield topic?
I guess such a simplified character model (rather similar to minecraft) would be enough for testing the speed in a first demo :)
Even tho it wouldn't really show the true beauty of the light stuff :/


Off topic but I saw this on steam 'n bought it

http://store.steampowered.com/app/636480/Ravenfield/
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on June 08, 2017, 08:41:00 am
off-topic but 12.107 kills  :thumbsup:
(100bots, 5sec respawn time, on challenging mode)
(https://img.ourl.ca/Bildschirmfoto%202017-06-07%20um%2002.55.58.png)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on June 08, 2017, 10:31:29 pm
Finally got some time to texture a bit  :P So, yeah, I'll give my skill a try too, your model are awesome and are quite a good base to work with  :D

So, I started to follow some blender tuto, and hopefully I'll become a bit more usefull  :P

Face texture :
Spoiler: ShowHide
(https://codewalr.us/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFDXfmsa.png&hash=b33eef82e3c66ae875285c481c505fce)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 09, 2017, 04:32:22 pm
That texture looks like it's from the PS2 ^^
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on June 11, 2017, 06:07:09 pm
FINALLY. DONE. (well, close enough)

Spoiler: ShowHide

565 vertices, 687 faces, 1,113 triangles.

(https://s29.postimg.org/gpzfwj7qb/halfwingedgirl.png) (https://postimg.org/image/gpzfwj7qb/)

Crappy background image reference not included.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: p2 on June 12, 2017, 09:07:11 am
great work!  :thumbsup:

But this somehow reminds me of this...
Spoiler: ShowHide
(https://codewalr.us/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvamers.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F11%2FVamers-Humour-Back-In-My-Day-Girls-Had-Edges-Not-Curves.jpg&hash=177e7cd477bbeae185bf9ebdcbf4be0e)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: Jean-Baptiste Boric on June 12, 2017, 12:15:51 pm
I might have gone overboard detailing the 3D asset(s).  (-_(//));

Scaling down to ~800 triangles shouldn't be too difficult. The mesh has not been optimized for the target hardware/engine yet anyways.

I guess the next step is to rig the mesh, but I wonder how animations will work. There's not enough processing power for full-blown bone weighting, there's not enough memory for vertex animation and slicing up the mesh into individual objects for each bone is just plain ugly.

I could also try to texture the mesh, but I have never done that before and knowing me it will take a truly ridiculous amount of time, so I'd rather not.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on June 12, 2017, 02:16:15 pm
Animation works by assiging one bone per vertex. It does look quite good actually. And yeah, I'll take care of texture.
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms
Post by: DJ Omnimaga on June 12, 2017, 03:55:32 pm
I wonder how fast this will be on a calc. Also would the model format be easy to convert to HP PPL?
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on July 14, 2017, 05:42:44 pm
Stilllll aliiiiivvveeeeee. J/k  :P

I am currently texturing / learning blender / hacking models / programming and doing other stuff.

This is what I currently have :

(https://tiplanet.org/forum/images/forum_uploads/11153_1500052818_5968fd5267a7b.png)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: tr1p1ea on July 15, 2017, 12:09:26 pm
Looking good so far!
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: kotu on July 15, 2017, 12:28:25 pm
 >B)
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: xMarminq_ on July 15, 2017, 12:32:00 pm
Quote from: TheMachine02 on July 14, 2017, 05:42:44 pm
Stilllll aliiiiivvveeeeee. J/k  :P


You've heard it hear and only hear folks! TheMachine02 is dead!

9_9

I like the model so far! How does it run though?
Title: Re: 3D models - A call To Arms [3d][z80][ez80]
Post by: TheMachine02 on July 15, 2017, 02:18:20 pm
Who said I was alive in the first place ?  :P

Anyway this model is currently @1000 triangles but I will do a very low poly model @400 triangles. At least I have a highres head which will be usefull for animation.