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ISIS attacks in Paris - Are we safe anymore?

Started by Dream of Omnimaga, November 14, 2015, 06:03:42 AM

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p4nix

#30
Just open a friggin' bible.

EDIT:
Sorry for that tone. But anyways: I hate when people say that islam is allbad. It just isn't true.
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novenary

#31
Quote from: Caleb Hansberry on November 14, 2015, 06:22:47 PM
So all these quotations are all just being taken out of context? http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
Thanks for linking quotes, my exposing the issue without any backing evidence is kinda useless.

Quote from: p4nix on November 14, 2015, 06:51:55 PM
Just open a friggin' bible.
Please tone it down, if you want to prove that christianity or any other religion is also violent, give proof. And stay calm, if this threads goes out of hand I'll lock it right away, this will be my only warning.

Quote from: DarkestEx on November 14, 2015, 06:36:45 PM
Quote from: Streetwalrus on November 14, 2015, 03:34:37 PM
By the way I feel like we should move this thread to safe haven, I don't think it's a good idea to leave it public, I don't want to censor opinions and I'd also rather avoid any kind of attack against the site for them. <_<
If you do so, you let them win. They successfully censored free speech then  :-\
I guess you're right.

Caleb Hansberry

Quote from: p4nix on November 14, 2015, 06:51:55 PM
Just open a friggin' bible.

And what does the Bible say about whether Islam is a violent religion or not?
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p4nix

I only have a german bible laying around here, and I'm too lazy to search for the quote. But also the bibles says that non-christians should be killed.
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Lionel Debroux

There's a huge difference between what the sacred texts of the respective religions state, and what human beings do with those statements...

Throughout history, for a fact:
* Christians have killed and still kill Christians, Muslims, Jews;
* Muslims have killed and still kill Muslims, Christians, Jews;
* Jews have killed and still kill Muslims, Jews (Yithzak Rabin...), though admittedly seldom Christians.

As usual, extremists, which are a small minority, screw up everything. But with religion-induced wars killing (dozens of ?) millions of human beings, I think we can stop trying to discuss which religion, as implemented by imperfect human beings driven by fear, hatred and resent, is more / less peaceful.
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Araidia

Quote from: p4nix on November 14, 2015, 06:56:26 PM
I only have a german bible laying around here, and I'm too lazy to search for the quote. But also the bibles says that non-christians should be killed.
But then most christians don't hate on other non-christians
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p4nix

Quote from: Araidia on November 14, 2015, 09:42:57 PM
But then most christians don't hate on other non-christians

I can show you a lot of Muslims which don't hate me. And I don't even believe in god, which is worse.

What the west did with many countries in the middle east can be referred to as terrorism as well. That shouldn't have been done back then, but now it's too late. So let's defeat the real issues. Low education, differences between rich and poor and other stuff. BTW: young adults and teens which are recruited by the IS from Europe aren't necessarily from a lower educated family. In fact, they often even come from families which aren't radicalized at all and which worry a lot of their children.


On a side note: I don't know whether this should be put on safe haven or not. On the one hand, we drop our freedom of speech as DarkestEx said, but on the other hand, this might be a private discussion between us members of CW. And CW is not the platform for official debate on politics I guess.
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Dream of Omnimaga

#37
Quote from: Streetwalrus on November 14, 2015, 03:34:37 PM
Well I agree, but when a fly keeps harassing you, at one point you get fed up and try to smash it, with more or less success.

By the way I feel like we should move this thread to safe haven, I don't think it's a good idea to leave it public, I don't want to censor opinions and I'd also rather avoid any kind of attack against the site for them. <_<
Just like the Charlie Hebdo incident, I don't think we should cave in to people who wants to restrict our freedoms. We have something that is somewhat close to free speech here (only limited by our forum rules and laws) and we have the right to complain about acts of terrors publicly as much as we want. I'll only lock the topic if it goes out of hand (eg discrimination or trolling). Just make sure to keep it on the forums, not IRC.

Besides, I disagree with p4nix about how only peace can fight terrorism. Terrorisms will kill us no matter if we leave them alone or not. They already attacked Canada (twice) for absolute no reason. While I don't like war, especially when started over stupid matters or with total lack of transparency (eg the Iraq War), sometimes we have no choice if we want to keep our freedom.
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alexgt

As of now any measure used to stop ISIS will most likely prove futile since they have spread everywhere. All around the US, Canada, Mexico to just name a few. All they need is time to make a plan and the supplies to carry it out. The government restricting conceal-carry gun permits just make it more likely for something to be successful since no one can protect themselves. Imagine how many people would have been saved if someone had a concealed firearm in the concert and could have taken out those shooters.

It is not a matter of who is being killed or who is killing the people terrorism has to be stopped one way or another.
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Dream of Omnimaga

Well there are large groups in Syria and Iraq. So at least if they can take those down that would be a start. It would most likely result into backlash from the ones located elsewhere, but they'll attack either way one day.


I'm thinking World War III will neither be a nuclear war nor another allies vs axis war, but rather a global war against terrorism. What I wonder is if Canada, USA, etc, will re-instate conscription?
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Lionel Debroux

QuoteThe government restricting conceal-carry gun permits just make it more likely for something to be successful since no one can protect themselves. Imagine how many people would have been saved if someone had a concealed firearm in the concert and could have taken out those shooters.
Er... since when wide gun availability really helps kill the perpetrators of those all too many mass shooting sprees in e.g. US universities ? ;)
On the contrary, it's a fact that wide gun availability enables mass shootings. The USA has an insanely high death toll by guns. Every week, on average, 200+ persons die because of guns in the USA, which is more than the combined deaths of this week's Beirut and Paris attacks, or the death toll of the Bali night club bombing ! And relatedly, France, which has much control on guns, has a relatively low rate of domestic violence with guns. This is very obviously not a coincidence ;)
Please watch the Bowling For Columbine (especially) and Elephant movies, and please quit blurting the same insanities as Donald Trump, which got himself a well-deserved smackdown by e.g. the French ambassador. I hope that the USA gets an official complaint (as in, the USA ambassador in France being called by French officials to receive the complaints) about him.
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Caleb Hansberry

I agree with Alex. So-called gun control does nothing but transfer guns from honest citizens to ones who wish to do illegal things with them. The world would be a better place if citizens were allowed to use guns for self defense and were trained in how to use them safely.

Suppose you're in a movie theater.  Out of, say 100 people there,  8 if them have guns. All eight are irresponsible maniacs because supposedly,  that's the effect that less gun control has.  The effect? Either less people go to movie theaters, making them an inferior target for mass murderers,  making them safer and thus evening things out,  or more people go to movie theatres prepared for the off chance that someone will pull a stunt, also making them an inferior target. Of course I don't suggest throwing guns out into crowds and letting everyone carry one, no matter who. But no matter what the critics say, would-be gunmen target places where they know guns are banned so they won't themselves get shot.
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alexgt

To get a concealed carry permit you need to go through a lot of training, background checks and all that stuff and it should stay that way. If anyone could go to a store, get a gun stuff it in their jacket and walk away I would say that the laws need to change.

And it is scary to think what will happen to firearms used for hunting. I go out hunting a lot and use bows/ firearms responsibly but if they take that away that is also going to far.
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Dream of Omnimaga

I wouldn't want to be near someone manipulating a gun without any previous training. He might not even know any of the safety rules about guns and his gun could go off by accident.
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123outerme

Quote from: alexgt on November 15, 2015, 05:40:46 PM
To get a concealed carry permit you need to go through a lot of training, background checks and all that stuff and it should stay that way. If anyone could go to a store, get a gun stuff it in their jacket and walk away I would say that the laws need to change.

And it is scary to think what will happen to firearms used for hunting. I go out hunting a lot and use bows/ firearms responsibly but if they take that away that is also going to far.
Honestly, this. And if you restrict concealed carry permits, then the people who will go to jail anyways for killing people won't have a problem with concealing a gun without a permit. The only people who would abide by the law abide by the law anyways by not killing people. Like stated above, don't give guns away willy-nilly. Eventually a gun will land in the hand of a terrorist.

But on the other hand, pulling a concealed gun on a shooter will make them more likely to shoot you first. It'll also give them access to another gun. It seems there's no right answer other than to not give guns to insane people. But that's not possible. If someone who's going to go to jail wants to get a gun, they'll do it illegally, if not legally. So fighting illegal gun sales seems like the best idea. But maybe that's just me.
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